Minutes of the Asociation for
At Civil Defence HQ, 4th March 1999
IN ATTENDANCE:
M.Fitzimmons (Chairman), C.Murphy, S.McDermott, T.McCarthy, D. O’Ceilleachoir, K. Cashin, M. Hanley, E. Maguire, G. Malone, J.Dunphy, F. Kerrane, M.Raftery, D.Traenor, V.Mulhearn, T.Gleeson, P.Forkan, M..Walsh, S.Murphy, J.O’Shaughnassy, M.Collins, C.McConn.
APOLOGIES: J.Flynn, O O’Loughlin
1. Agenda:
Items added - Age limits, Name badges, F.S.C. fees, CTIF.
2. Minutes
The minutes of the meeting of 1/12/98 were adopted by the meeting:
Proposed - T McCarthy, Seconded - J Dunphy
3. Matters Arising
None
4. Correspondence
Letter from M.Walsh confirming that the DFB first responder course was delivered by North Eastern University which was itself an accrediting body in the U.S. After discussion it was decided to write to DoE&LG pointing out the need for an ‘accrediting body’ in this country (and ultimately, the CFOA might have to consider ‘recognising’ courses itself, in the absence of any alternative).
5. Senior Fire Officer Roster – Review
Impact is awaiting another meeting with L.G.M.S.B.
J O’Shaughnassy raised the problem of ‘adequate’
training for rostered fire prevention officers who had little operational
exposure. It was agreed that
‘adequately trained’ needed clarification.
P Forkan to chair a sub-committee - including M Hanly and E Maguire - to report to next meeting.
Any submissions to be made to him before March 12th.
6. Retained Fire Service Review.
M Hanly circulated and explained the adjudicator’s document that had been accepted by management and was currently being put to firefighters. There was no great level of satisfaction or unanimity on the contents. The Chairman thanked him for his efforts over recent years on the issue.
7. Better Local Government
Chairman outlined current position i.e. negotiations at a standstill because of difficulties in Dublin and Corks. M Hanly expanded on this and suggested that Fire, I.T., Finance and Personnel were not being addressed at all at this stage but might be dealt with separately later – outside of the Engineering structure. F Kerrane said that he had prepared a policy document for the Donegal service and agreed to circulate it through the Secretary.
8. Fire Officer Qualifications
M Hanley suggested that the ‘Prevention’ and
‘Operations’ titles should be removed from ACFO posts and that
qualifications be restricted to Engineering and Architecture.
Also, clarification on L.A.C. ‘medicals’ required.
Matter to be taken up with DoE&LG.
9. Fire Service Uniforms
The chairman had raised the matter at Fire Services Council and got agreement on:
- Midnight navy gone, existing colour retained
- Red piping and ‘external’ pockets gone, and uniform design simplified
- White shirt from Station Officer up.
The relevant material is readily available.
10. Conference 99
T McCarthy outlined details. No problems anticipated at this stage
11. National Safety Council
A meeting with NSC is arranged for 24/3/99.
The Chairman outlined a proposed joint approach to community fire safety
with NSC and DoE&LG. K Cashen
is developing proposals on CFOA input. The
nomination of a CFOA member to NSC to be raised.
12. Fire Services Council
The Council and its Training Committee has refused to meet
CFOA - Sec. to write to Chairman seeking a meeting.
13. Dept. of Environment & Local Government.
Chairman had met Principal Officer and Fire Advisor
regarding a meeting and outlined a draft agenda. It was noted with regard to the F.S.A,1981 that the DPP had
taken a prosecution in Mayo – the only instance known to the members.
New dangerous substances regulations to be added to the agenda.
The existing Sub-Committee (chairman M. Fitzimmons) to examine these
regs.
14. Irish Marine Emergency Service
Chairman explained the background to the meeting which had
been held on 2/3/99 between DoE&LG, IMES, Co.Managers and CFOs.
IMES are now charged with inland rescue co-ordination and are examining
their options (e.g. fire services) in designating ‘Declared Resources’.
15. FEU Seminar
Seminar on Community Fire Safety to be held in Cheshire in
conjunction with FEU meeting. E.U.
to fund one nominee from CFOA (Sec) , one from DoE&LG (K Cashen) and CFOA to
fund one member of Executive (M Raftery).
16. Age Limit
Reference was made to circular letter LGP 2/99 i.e. 18 – 65yrs limits for recruitment. Sec. to check position regarding firefighters as Occupational Health document says 18 to 35 yrs.
17. Name Badges
M Hanly suggested procuring a badge for each member – Executive to make decision.
18. Fire Safety Cert. Fees
J O’Shaughnasy alerted members to the possibility that
one Application (and therefore one maximum fee) might cover more than one
building.
19. CTIF
T McCarthy circulated the proceedings of the recent
conference in Lisbon. F Kerrane
notified the meeting that he had been invited to present a paper to the next
CTIF meeting
20. Any other Business.
Web Page – the Chairmans proposal to create a CFOA site was approved – to consist of Members page, Subscribers page, Public page and a Chat/‘Frequently Asked Questions’ page. Site and set up cost estimated at £1,000.
C McConn reported that 2 No.‘Age 55’ unfair dismissal cases had been lost by Roscommon Co.Council – awarded £10,400 each.
M.Raftery reported a successful prosecution for building without a F.S.C. – fines range from £20 to £400.
The meeting approved the proposal, outlined by the Chairman, to offer a prize, say £500, to the best final year Engineering project in the country. Sec to pursue with Universities.
Next meeting : 7th May 11.00hrs
Venue Dungarvan
Signed : ………………………. Date …..………..
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Clonea Strand, Dungarvan,
on 7th May 1999
IN ATTENDANCE:
M.Fitzimmons (Chairman), C.Murphy, S.McDermott, T.McCarthy,
D.O’Ceilleachoir, K. Cashin, M. Hanley, G. Malone, K.Caffrey, J.Dunphy,
M.Raftery, D.Traenor, S.Murphy, S.Grogan, J.Flynn, D.O’Mahony, M.Collins.
APOLOGIES: T Gleeson, C McConn, O.O’Loughlin.
1. Minutes
The minutes of the meeting of 4th March 1999 were adopted by the meeting.
2. Matters Arising
The Chairman congratulated T.McCarthy on hosting a very successful conference.
M Hanly
reported that the ‘Senior Officer Training’ Sub-Committee was not yet in a
position to report but would do so before the next meeting.
3. Correspondence
A letter had been received from the Department of Defence inviting CFOA to make an oral submission on Civil Defence Review – Secretary to arrange.
Letter from HSA in response to our submission on Draft Petroleum regulations. Many of our suggestions had been taken on board. The problem identified with the scoring system in the Code of Practice for ‘existing kerbside stations’ has not yet been addressed.
T McCarthy said that the Gas Technical Standards Committee on non-domestic installations had failed to agree on cylinder storage but that the HSA would soon publish a draft for comment.
M Hanly expressed concern at the use of
‘self-bunding’diesel tanks (i.e. twin-skinned) – their usage to be
monitored by members and a CFOA. A
CFOA position may need to be adopted if they are perceived to be in widespread
use.
4. Conference 2000
O.O’Loughlin has agreed to host it in Limerick. The two-pronged theme being considered was ‘International Codes of Practice’ and ‘Fire Service Management’ – with a view to attracting more Irish consultant /fire officer delegates as well as maintaining the British/international interest.
Conference problems identified included:
- absence of CFOA members at some of the presentations
- absence of members at the Conference Ball
- loss of support from ‘trade’ at Conference Ball
- inadequate control of access to Conference Ball
-
inadequate maintenance of conference data from year to year.
5 Conference 2001
M Hanly volunteered to host it - in the confident expectation of having a suitable venue by then.
6. National Safety Council
The Chairman reported that he had taken
up the place which the CFOA had been offered on their Fire Committee, and spoke
of the need for the CFOA to take a greater interest in getting to the local
national schools, media, transition year classes, etc.
J Flynn to copy Sec. with details of his fire prevention programme (using
third level ‘co-op.’ students) for circulation.
Sec. to write to DoE&LG requesting Homebond Inspectors to ensure
proper alarm systems and window opes in new houses.
7. Meeting with DoE&LG
The Chairman reported on an amicable meeting covering:
Capitol – emphasising the need for authorities to assess tenders and draw down money as quickly as possible (the earlier money is spent - the earlier further ‘approvals’ are released).
IMES – no conclusions, discussions ongoing.
Concerts – licensing being contemplated.
Y2K – potential problems identified (no CFO to negotiate with firefighters locally on special payment).
Statistics – DoE&LG questionnaire being revamped and will be further updated when current pilot project on the ‘electronic fire report’ is completed.
L.A.C. Medical standards for Senior Officers – no information.
Fire Safety in Pre-Schools – published.
Accreditation of courses e.g. first responder – not likely from Fire Services. Council (Executive to consider employing Trauma Consultant e.g. as used by Cork City, for advice).
East TLG – re-activation sought and
promised.
8. Fire Services Council
The Chairman expressed strong concern at
efforts within the Council to lower academic qualifications for Senior Officers.
The meeting affirmed that while a degree route should be opened up (for
junior officers, etc.) a primary degree should continue to be an absolute
requirement.
9. Web site
The Chairman confirmed that the Site was
to come on stream in a matter of days (cfoa.net).
Conference papers would appear on it.
Further data for publication should be sent through M.Fitzimmons.
10. Better Local Government
M Hanly reported no progress on this or
the ‘roster’ claim.
11. Any Other Business
M.Hanly expressed concern at difficulty in filling ACFO posts and the continued differentiation between ‘Ops’ and ‘Prev’.
M.Raftery was requested to circulate
results of survey on building control ‘needs and resources’.
12. Next meeting
It was agreed to cancel the June meeting. A.G.M. fixed for September 22nd.
Venue:
Civil Defence Headquarter, Dublin.
Signed : …………………….. Date …………….1999
Chairman top
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At Civil Defence Hq,
24th Sept. 1999
IN ATTENDANCE:
M.Fitzimmons (Chairman), C.Murphy, S.McDermott, T.McCarthy, D. O’Ceilleachoir, K. Cashin, M. Hanley, E. Maguire, G. Malone, K.Caffrey, J.Dunphy, F. Kerrane, M.Raftery, D.Traenor, V.Mulhearn, T.Gleeson, P.Forkan, M..Walsh, S.Murphy, D.O’Mahony, C.McConn, O.O’Loughlin, T.McDonald.
APOLOGIES: J.Flynn
1. Agenda
Matters to be added - Communications (G.Malone), Planning Bill (M.Raftery)
2.
Minutes
The minutes of the meeting of 7th May were adopted by the meeting:
Proposed - G.Malone. Seconded - M.Hanly
3. Matters
Arising
Removal of ‘Ops’ and ‘Prev’ differentiation.
The Chairman said that Fire Services Council was split on the question of
Qualifications but was considering support services to assist people to gain a
degree. M.Hanly recommended
restricting qualifications to ‘Degree in Engineering or Architecture or
Membership of I.F.E.’- pointing out that any drop in the standard would be
contrary to the stardust recommendations. It
was agreed that a position paper should be drawn up (by M.Hanly, S.Murphy&
T.Gleason) for presentation to the DoE&LG as part of a request to review the
entire structure of the Service in parallel with the proposed retained review
due in 2000.
4.
Correspondence
Letter from M.McCarthy, Construction Section, DoE&LG re: inspections - to be circulated to members.
Letter from Fire Services Council refusing a meeting with Association.
Letters from Air Corps and D.o.Defence thanking the Association for condolences re: helicopter crash deaths.
5.
Retained Service Review
M Hanly advised that the ‘Composite Agreement’ proposal
had been accepted by firefighters, that implementation guidelines would issue,
that it would supersede existing local arrangements, and that any queries could
be directed to him before Sept. 30th. The
Chairman congratulated him on the outcome.
6. Better
Local Government.
M.Hanly advised that there had been two meetings of the
Plenary Group –Dublin and Cork situations were the main obstacles. A
third meeting was scheduled for 12th Oct. 1999 at which acceptance might come to
a vote. In any event, local
structures would be a matter for local negotiation.
The position of the Fire Service was not resolved. He
reminded members that Building Control (including Part B) was currently being
done on a good will basis. He also
said that the Rostered Senior Fire Officer review was ongoing.
T.McCarthy volunteered to pursue old Department ‘Direct Reporting
Relationship’ correspondence via a ‘Freedom of Information’ request.
7.
Conference 2000
O.O’Loughlin reported that speakers from USA, New Zealand, U.K. and Europe were lined up. A Hotel had not yet been booked. Dates were 3rd ,4th May.
8.
Liaison with DoE&LG
The Chairman made a presentation on the proposed fire
report that would also generate the annual statistics for the Dept.
This met with broad approval with some opposition to statistic gathering.
He also reported that the Dept. would not meet the Association again this
year and that indications were that the capitol budget for 2000 would be £13m.
9. Presentation
The Chairman congratulated Val Maguire on his recent
retirement and made a presentation on behalf of the Association – commending
him for his input to the service over many years.
10. Liaison with National
Safety Council
The Chairman reported on its activities particularly
regarding the new multi-agency regional committees on Accident Prevention and
Fire Safety. He also encouraged
members to adopt an active, high profile role during ‘Fire Safety Week’1st
– 7th Nov.
11 Liaison with Fire Services Council
The sub-committee on Senior Officer Training was not
yet ready to report.
12. IMES
No developments
13. Web Site
The Chairman reported that the site was established but
there was negligible content because of lack of an ‘editor’ and input.
He proposed to contract the work to a ‘Web Magazine’ who would sell
advertising (not to our regular supporters) to fund it and return 20% of the
income to the Association. A decision was deferred until the next meeting.
14 Third Level Student Prize
The Secretary outlined the details and got approval to proceed accordingly.
The Chairmans proposal to sponsor the 1st place student prize for the Trinity Diploma approved.
15. Any Other Business.
G.Malone reported problems with MG4 compliance.
P.Forkan spoke of revision of Part M of building
regulations and problem of ‘retrospective’ Fire Safety Certs. He invited comments on the latter – suggesting that
creating an official path for dealing with them was not envisaged and that
authorities should be more vigilant in prosecuting offenders.
Next meeting 8th December
Venue: Civil Defence Headquarters.
Signed : …………………….. Date …………….1999
Chairman top
held at Stand House, Kildare, 8th Dec 1999
IN ATTENDANCE:
M Fitzimmons (Chairman), C Murphy, K.Cormican, T McCarthy, D. O’Ceilleachoir, K Cashin, M. Hanly, G. Malone, J Dunphy, F. Kerrane, D.Treanor, V.Mulhearn, T.Gleeson, S Murphy, D.O’Mahony, M.Collins, O O’Loughlin, N Bourke
APOLOGIES: M Raftery, P Forkan, C McConn, E Maguire, K
Caffrey.
CFO N Burke – Cavan was introduced to the Association by S Murphy and welcomed by the Chairman.
1. Minutes
The minutes of the meeting of 22nd September were adopted by the meeting:
Proposed: K Cashen, Seconded: J Dunphy.
2. Matters Arising
The Executive proposed a policy statement as follows:
“While any member could apply for funding to attend or speak at any conference, the norm will be that an invitation to an individual would not be entertained whereas members (normally from the Executive) could be nominated to represent the CFOA as the Executive decided, from time to time. Disbursements to consist of Air fare, Hotel costs and £50 per day.”
- proposed by T McCarthy, seconded by O O’Loughlin and carried unanimously.
The Chairman reported on recent FEU meeting that he had
attended with the Secretary. Minutes
are available from Sec. on request.
3. Correspondence
Letter from Minister acknowledging request for 2 places on Fire Services Council.
Letter from Minister acknowledging request for place on National Safety Council.
Letter from Construction Section - DoE&LG, refusing to meet CFOA re: retrospective Fire Safety Certs. (at this time). CFOA advised to liase with BRAB subcommittee through P Forkan. Sec. to circulate survey form and recently circulated statistics on Building Control, and to seek clarification of the latter.
Letter from K Ring, P.O. promising to copy Sec. with EU ‘Community Action Programme’ when it is adopted.
A discussion on accommodation for asylum seekers concluded
that normal Building Control Regulations should always apply.
4. Conference 2000
O O’Loughlin confirmed that arrangements were in place
for Limerick Inn on 3rd, 4th May and that rooms may be booked through him.
The ‘one-day’ rate was recommended to all senior officers.
5. National Safety Council.
Chairman reported that multi-agency meetings on safety awareness had commenced (by Health Board regions) but the Gardai had withdrawn their support. The Chairman recommended a co-operative approach by members.
6. Retained Service Agreement
M Hanly told the meeting that a further meeting was
arranged for Dec 20th between LGMSB, Unions and the Facilitator with a view to
clarifying contentious issues (e.g. 75% attendance requirement).
7. Better Local Government
M Hanly reported that SIPTU and IEI had voted against the
proposals while IMPACT was recommending a yes vote. A ‘roster review’ claim had been lodged by IMPACT and
would be referred to the Labour Relations Commission, if not satisfactorily met.
T McCarthy had received copies of his personal files from DoE&LG
under Freedom of Information, but not those relating to ‘direct reporting
relationship’. He had appealed the latter decision.
He also requested that members return his recently circulated
questionnaire.
8. Fire Services Council
Chairman emphasised the need to produce a proposal for
Senior Officer training in order to influence FSC courses and content.
M Hanly to forward his submission to Chairman.
9. Web Site
Chairman to arrange a demonstration at next meeting –
decision to be made then.
10. Emergency Call System
T McCarthy expressed fear of loss of emergency service when
some areas are ‘dumped’ at times of high load.
Sec. to ask Eircom, Eircell, Ocean and Esat for clarification (c.c. P
Fleming, DoE&LG).
11. New Years Eve
No special arrangements have been made – national
negotiations for those at work, on standby and on call had broken down.
Each member advised to write to his manager if he had particular
concerns.
12. Regional Groups
The concept of such groups - to meet for exchange of
information, ideas etc. was approved. Executive
to progress the matter.
13. Motions
Deferred at the request of T McCarthy.
14. Any other Business.
Secretary to write to impact re filling of ACFO Dublin and CFO Wexford.
Sec. to contact Ops. and Prev. Associations with a view to reopening discussion on the proposed industrial relations umbrella group for all Fire Officers.
Next meeting - 11.00hrs 23rd February 2000
Venue: Civil Defence Headquarters, Dublin.
Signed : …………………….. Date …………….2000
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